Addiction recovery too often erases the partnership. Today, I interview Dr. Robert Navarra, who will shed more light on this problem.

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Dr. Navarra is a clinician, researcher and author, specializing in couples recovery. He has created a Roadmap for the Journey, a workshop for couples in Addiction Recovery and couples and addiction recovery, a Gottman approach for therapists, counselors, and addiction professionals. 

We had a delightful conversation before our interview, where we discovered how strongly we both feel that while AA is a terrific organization of individual recovery and help with partners, it really limits the recovery focused individual recovery and we agree that adding the relationship part is essential. I’ve actually spent two years looking for somebody to interview on this topic, because I think it’s so important. And I was very surprised because I wasn’t aware that when Dr. Navarra told me that the research supports this idea, that there’s a higher percentage of success and recovery, when the relationship is addressed. Could you tell my audience more about that research?

Dr. Navarra:  You Bet. I think Rhoda, what’s really important, probably for most people to keep in mind is that there is no research that says you should not work with couples in early recovery. So we start with what isn’t present. And so the prevailing model now is to really separate partners when somebody gets into recovery and to focus on those individual recovery approaches, as though it’s wrong to work with couples and that was my original model and found out that there is no support for that in any research I have looked through and yet, you kind of look from the other side and there is, I think, some pretty compelling research, a longitudinal setting. 

So this was like over a long period of time of eight years. The most successful outcomes for addiction recovery are when the relationship is intact and strong. Researchers figured that out and I think people need to know that.

Rhoda:  I absolutely do. I think there’s often this kind of separation and I found that, I think my couples from a personal standpoint that get support in their relationship are able to go on and have longer success in recovery. So I was so happy to find you.

Dr. Navarra:  Well, thank you. I mean, I’m so happy to be able to spread the message, because there’s a lot of, shall we say, kind of resistance to the idea in professional recovery communities and treatment programs. So I bump up against that. We don’t do that. Is the message, and I’m having a hard time actually getting responses from some of the name brand treatment programs to actually look at this as something to add to the treatment protocol. Because they don’t have that model in their mind I guess.

Rhoda:  Well, I hope that you’re successful because my personal experiences that it really matters in my working with couples. What can the partner in active recovery do to help the relationship?

Dr. Navarra:  Well, that’s interesting. You know, some of the research looks at three different profiles. So this is a little technical but not too much. One is both partners are in recovery. Another model or typologies, what I’m referring to is only one partners in recovery. And then the third version of this is neither partners in recovery, but there’s what’s sometimes called dry, sort of like dry….

Rhoda:  Drunk? 

Dr. Navarra:  Yes, and so what we have there is somebody who has stopped using, but really nothing has been addressed to deal with all the stuff, that’s followed them into recovery. So what can a partner could do, is by recognizing it is really important for both partners to have some support and some understanding about addiction and addiction recovery and then to actually explore the possibility and this is where it’s kind of difficult to find somebody to help them manage the relationship issues and I reference, I’d like to make actually is a 12 step program that really hardly anybody seems to know about. I’m always asking about this and nobody knows about it. It seems for the most part; it’s recovering couples anonymous RCA. So it’s a bonafide 12 step program and the focus of recovery is actually the relationship. 

So that would be a good resource for your listeners to explore, at least look into, if they’re interested.

Rhoda:  Absolutely. So if there isn’t a help available from the therapeutic community or in the self-help community, do you have any suggestions that people might try to put into practice, while they’re trying to do recovery and their partner is not, and because their partner is not drinking or using?

Dr. Navarra:  All right. So if the partner’s not in recovery, then there would be more of an individual focus. I think, you know, one of the things that’s sort of the Kind of the center of what happens in couple of relationships and family relationships with active addiction, is what Claudia black defined so many years ago. The rules in the family like that or a couple of relationship is, don’t talk, don’t trust, don’t feel. 

Now the exact opposite that is talking about what’s going on, expressing what your feelings and asking for what you need. So one of the things partners can start to experiment with, is if their partner refuses to get help, you can’t force a person and you don’t want to move into some kind of control mode. But I think it’s okay to… every situation is different to at least say, you know, it’s really difficult for me to see the struggle go on.

And I just think, I’m just naming it and all you would do is just name the thing that’s in the room and there might be a request. I really appreciate it if the request is made. If the partner comes back with, no, I’m not interested then okay. But at least it’s been said, and sometimes there’s a process that takes a while before the partner kind of gets it and so I think if there’s just a way for the other partner who is in recovery to kind of keep that present, saying, no, this is really a struggle, once again, I wish I would be nice if, and then let go.

Rhoda:  Yes. It’s the same thing as parenting adult children. The idea that you can say your opinion once, you can express it, but then you need to be quiet. 

Dr. Navarra:  That’s right.

Rhoda:  It’s their lives, their choices. They have to figure it out. But at least you’ve been authentic. Particularly, if you’ve been asked. Sometimes I don’t even say things, because I haven’t been asked, you know? 

Dr. Navarra:  Well, you know, it’s actually, one of the, sorry, it’s, it’s one of the interventions in the roadmap for the journey that I do. I teach couples and I teach therapists and train couples this way too, it’s called three boxes and one is the so called codependent box. What we’re trying to stay out of. It’s driven by fear and control as the effort to sort of manage the out of control situations. So we want to stay out of that box. But the other two boxes reflect inter dependency, which is actually a healthy thing for a couple. And interdependency is defined as I’m able to express my thoughts, my feelings and my needs. I may not get them met necessarily, but I’m able to do that. So that’s what we’re aiming for and so one of the boxes is expressing feelings. I feel concerned about, I’m happy about and I’m doing is just telling you what I’m feeling. 

Rhoda:  Yes. And that’s so crucial. And for some reason we don’t expect couples in recovery to share their feelings with one another. We expect them to do that in 12 step programs or other programs.

Dr. Navarra:  They’re going to say, so that just simply expressing feelings is a skillset that is new for many couples, period and if you’re in recovery, that’s really brand new, most likely. The other box is offering support. So by that I mean it’s okay to say, I am really feeling overwhelmed tonight. I don’t feel like I can manage the kids bath time. Can you cover that? And the partner may say, yes, I can, or no, I can’t, because I have a meeting myself tonight. So we can come up with a different plan, but it’s okay to provide support, that’s not codependent in of itself. As long as the motivation isn’t driven by guilt or fear, it’s just turning towards your partner in a way that allows you to be supportive and to ask for and receive support. So you have to sort through the boundary stuff. But I think that’s an important skillset for every couple to happen. Couples in recovery need that skillset. Just like any other couple.

Rhoda:  One of the things that I do to make the step of amends, more of a couple connection, is that when the person in recovery goes to make amends, if I feel that they’re doing really well, I’ll say, I’d really like you to ask them what was the hardest part of my addiction for you? So that they listen to the partner’s perspective. So it isn’t simply… even on TV. I forgot what cops show the great job the guy did, it went into recovery. I don’t think it was hill street blues, but I can see his face clear as day, a mustache and kind of ball and he was wonderful and he went to make amends to his son, but it’s so one sided and so whatever relationship you are in hopefully, you’re integrated and solid enough that you can hear what was hardest for them, which is more of a couple to both perspectives are being acknowledged.

Dr. Navarra:  Wow. So I’m sitting here smiling because this is literally one of the interventions I do in the couple’s workshop. It’s called heart. 

Rhoda:  Wow. So you got a name for it? 

Dr. Navarra:  I do have a name for it. The anacronym is healing emotions from addiction and recovery trauma. So here’s what we’ve discovered from the research is that we’ve got all this trauma that follows couples into recovery. And what that means is that that trauma will dog their recovery and dog the relationship and it has to be managed. So I’ve literally given this workshop in five different treatment programs now with couples that are fairly early in recovery, like under a year, which would be considered kind of early.  And I teach them how to do this, to take one incident to talk about with a partner and give them a structure to talk about it without blaming the partner with the addiction.

Rhoda:  Yes. The set of questions, like what was most difficult for you? What was this like? How do you think this impacted our relationship? And it’s a guided discussion of just trying to process the emotions that then begin to heal and that’s how you heal trauma, by talking about it, acknowledging it and little by little, it has less, ideally less of an impact.

Dr. Navarra:  And the thing that’s kind of interesting to me about this Rhod, is when I’ve done this, both partners actually are the speaker. So we take a speaker listener role thing and the person with the addiction is also been traumatized by their own addiction and that typically doesn’t occur to their partner.  And it’s been quite kind of poignant moments. I’ve seen over a number of occasions now where the listener is the non-addictive partner asking the questions, how do you think this event affected you or affected our relationship? And the person with the addiction carries so much shame and blame as we’ve talked about, right? 

Rhoda:  Yes.  They’re crying, they’re talking about, and it gives a different perspective. It’s like, wow. So this is an externalized thing that invaded the relationship, is how I put this in context. Addiction has invaded your relationship and its impacted partner one, partner two, and the relationship,

Rhoda:  Which is the third entity.

Dr. Navarra:  That’s right.

Rhoda:  You know; I teach that a lot. There is an us, and that’s when you’re with me as a couple. I’m taking care of the US. And I’m not judge Judy. I’m not on anybody’s side. I am on the side of the relationship and teaching that, shuttling back and forth, which is what we do, teaching them how to do that, I think is a healing process?

Dr. Navarra:  It’s been an amazing process to witness, and I’ve used this as my own practice with couples where addiction is not the thing that’s invaded their relationship, but a serious medical issue or mental health issue, like bipolar disorder or cancer, to be able to talk about the impact of this huge thing that has impacted both of us and we’re not getting support to talk about it. We’re sent off on our individual therapy or support systems and there’s no we to it, like you’re identifying, we need to name it.

Rhoda:  I think about all the adults that I work with who as children lost a parent and nobody talked to them about it back in those days, you know, and how that still affects people in their inability to share, because they didn’t get that practicing and I think one of the things I talk about with couples is, there is a lot of practicing going on. This is new stuff and… It’s really cool, if you can start doing some of this and share this with your partner.

Dr. Navarra:  That’s right and provide… what I found is that when you provide a structure that provides the couple a method for avoiding blame and focus on self. So the key part of this, is this is how this impacted me. Disorder has impacted me in the following ways, rather than this is what you did. 

Rhoda:  Yes. That’s the finger pointing you. Yes. 

Dr. Navarra:  That will not help anybody.

Rhoda:  I keep talking to people about the things that they’re doing that are creating more distance and it’s so funny. People look me dead in the eye and go, I know, but I can’t help it.

Dr. Navarra: Because there is anger and there’s hurt and typically the partner of the person with the addiction is kind of overlooked in the whole treatment process often. So it’s like what about me kind of feelings. 

And when we make it about both of them, it’s like, hey, there’s room for both of you, because you both have had that, you’ve been impacted by this huge thing and there is space for you to share your impressions and how this impacted you. The healing really starts to put the cup on a different direction altogether. It’s a process, right? It’s not a one session kind of thing. It’s over time. But we can trust that we can share our thoughts and feelings about what’s happened, as well as develop a new relationship going forward.

Rhoda:  That’s right. You’ve already talked about some of the patterns and problems you see in the early stages of recovery. Is there anything else you want to include?

Dr. Navarra:  Well, boundaries are a huge issue, because typically addiction kind of blends people together into one mass psychologically, right? So we have to kind of separate what are my individual needs and so one of the things I think that can be similar between even couples in early recovery and long-term recovery, is they may have exactly the same issues, because people long-term recovery has never talked about the things we’re talking about right now. It just follows, I had a couple I worked with, they were both in recovery for 17 years and they’re together, they’re married and never talked about the drug using years that were really traumatic. So 17 years later, they come into therapy and for the first time, we talk about the impact of addiction and that’s exactly what needed to happen to keep them together, which is what they desired and to develop the relationship that they wanted.

Rhoda:  Yeah, I think that… as my mentor Sonya Navis said, talking and talking and talking, you may need 25 conversations. It’s not a magical one or two. 

And so it softens the hard edges and that’s really the only way and I think a lot of times, we and couples or like the thin man in the wizard of Oz squeezing oil on… or Dorothy in the wizard of Oz squeezing oil on the thin man, helping that lubrication to talk. 

Because being able to hear and not shut down, not withdraw and stay there and we’re pretty good at it, because we’ve been doing it a really long time, you know, and it’s also not our life. So we can be really present and witness and really support both people and that is the elegance of couples, is why I like it so much, because it’s such a challenge, you know? 

Dr. Navarra:  Me too, you see what we come up against. Rhoda, in my opinion, my experience has been the professionals in the recovery community or just therapeutic community, don’t quite understand that. I offered this workshop at a treatment program. My former clinical director of, there were two family therapists there. This is the weekend workshop for couples in recovery. One family therapist was totally on board, said, yeah, I think this is a great idea. Getting couples to talk to each other with as little as three months of continuous recovery in this outpatient program, all the way up to a year plus. And the other therapist said, no, I’m not going to refer any couples to this workshop. It’s too soon. So you get that version of thinking in recovery and once again, we started this episode where there is no support for that. That says that’s actually what we should be doing. 

Dr. Navarra:  It’s a mindset. They have to change our mindset about…

Rhoda:  And I think it’s a diff, I do, I mean, I haven’t had your experiences, but I’m certain that it’s a difficult mindset to see where people are coming from and they feel like, oh, the individual in recovery has enough on their plate and I’m thinking, but if they don’t involve their partner, and this is what I see, that when the partner’s not involved, and I know about Alanon, but sometimes that’s not really going to do it. 

Dr. Navarra:  Right. 

Rhoda:  And it’s because it’s not… it’s two individual processes and they need some joining, some usness and sharing. You know, this is really hard for me today. You know, I feel like drinking without the non-addictive partners saying, oh my God, you’re talking about relapsing. I can’t stand it, or how can you do this to me? I don’t want to go through that again and so that we lose that and they get farther and farther apart.

Dr. Navarra:  Right. You know, I guess when you provide that model and say it’s really okay to talk about these things and here is how you can do it.  Then we can be successful and I have to say on the positive side, so you know, it’s like, all right, it’s hard to change the mindset for how things had been done for so long. 

On the one hand, on the other hand, I’m getting invitations from different places. I’m going to be doing a couple’s workshop. I think that’s the first couples workshop they’ve ever offered at Hazelton. Yeah. In Minnesota and Paul Anderson Renewal Center invited me to provide, I think for the first time, a workshop for couples. So I’m doing roadmap for them this year and next year, next Valentine’s 2020.

Rhoda:  That’s wonderful. It really is.

Dr. Navarra:  And so it’s catching on and then I got also an invitation from Washington State Labor Council to offer this workshop to their recovering members and their partners and so that’s, that’s coming up this year as just a benefit. So there’s some acknowledgement at some levels in some momentum, like yeah, this is actually a good thing to add to the recovery tool kit. 

Rhoda:  And if there’s anybody in the audience that doesn’t have addiction issues, it’s still the talking about hard things. I still remember a couple where basically when a miscarriage had not been handled well, like let’s say 20 years before and the couple was falling apart because that had never been talked about and dealt with. So you can apply these truths to any kind of trauma outside issue that is difficult for people to talk about and learn from this, because it is that shuttling back and forth between two people about hard things.

Dr. Navarra:  It is, and there’s reasons why people struggle with this. So sometimes we have… so the discomfort that a person might have with expressing emotions either because the family wouldn’t do that or I think we’re sort of hardwired in certain ways that some people are just more extroverted and more comfortable. So there’s history, there’s our own comfort level and so it takes sort of an act of faith to say, well, I don’t know, is this going to make things worse? And you can start little by little and saying, I hope this is okay, but let’s see how it goes. And levels of disclosure can kind of deepen over time with baby steps. 

Rhoda:  Absolutely. 

Dr. Navarra:  Somebody in recovery, who never talks about how was their day, & they are able to say I’m kind of having a rough day. Maybe that’s all they want to say.  And they said it.

Rhoda:  Yes, I have a feeling word vocabulary list you can print out on my emotions page and it’s something I use with incest victims back in 1980, I had a stack of cards with the motions and now it’s printable, but you can run through and I tell my couples go home and print and then pick three that fit how you’re feeling that day and just have a 10-minute practice with each other… 

Dr. Navarra:  Now that’s great.

Rhoda:  Do it and share it and that really helps because it is… you’re right, it’s very difficult to get started in baby steps. We’re not looking for, you know, let’s unbury the deep secret in the basement.

Dr. Navarra:  Yeah. It could go from; I’m having a rough day to I’m having a rough day because I’m remembering some things I’ve done when it was under the influence and it’s just kind of painful to think about. So there’s a progression of emotions and willingness to share that thing that you know, probably couples are going to need some structure for that and that’s where it’s helpful to have somebody guide that conversation with you, if it feels too overwhelming at first.

Which is why I offer these intensive workshops or these workshops for couples in my office and I limit it to three couples and there we can practice this skillset and then I also offer this opportunity to do individual couples work that literally takes 15 hours of therapy and puts them into a three-day frame. So I’m doing this marathon work with couples. 

Rhoda:  That’s great. 

Dr. Navarra:  That really tackles this stuff and gets them on this pathway of skillsets and beginning to have these conversations. And so to me that’s really exciting to see how that works and how effectively you can move people sooner than later, if you give them the tools.

Rhoda:  I completely agree. What other important things do you think would help couples have more success, while their partners in recovery? Besides what we’ve already talked about that practice in sharing. Is there anything else that you’d like to mention?

Dr. Navarra:  Yeah. Actually, there is a tool that I give couples that actually has a card deck to support these conversations. But you don’t need a car deck to do this. And what it is, it’s called my recovery, my wellness. So what I encourage couples to do is to say, here’s what’s going on with me that’s important for me to have you know about what I’m doing in my own recovery or my own wellness and send the person shares what they’re doing because it’s important to them that their partner knows. So the exercise is called my recovery. The listener is just listening. It’s not really a conversation, it’s just information to say, oh, okay. Now I find in my yoga classes really important. I just want you to know why it helps me to feel relaxed and so the conversation may be very short, but you’re sharing something about your personal recovery wellness approach that you’re comfortable sharing. It has to be comfortable and willing and if a partner asks a question you don’t want to answer, you say, well, I think I’ve said enough, I’d like to stop there and that’s perfectly fine. 

So that’s a great exercise.

Rhoda:  I like that a lot. That’s really nice. That’s great. What happens when the partner in recovery relapses and extinguishes hope in their partner? What can be done to help them during that time of discouragement?

Dr. Navarra:  Yeah. So relapse is not inevitable. It’s sometimes stated as this is a part of the addiction process. I don’t think it’s inevitable. So it’s a misstatement to say it’s a part of the addiction process, but it happens. And so I tried to work with couples when they’re in recovery to say, what will you do if, so if you have a conversation about this before it happens, you know, God forbid, but if you do relapse, if I relapse, let’s talk about what happens then. So the more this can be dealt with upfront, the better…

There’s a plan in front rather than you’re in crisis and now, I don’t know what to do. So that would be the first step. 

Rhoda:  Yes. And you’re right, there is an assumption. It’s inevitable and I like that, stating it’s not necessarily inevitable and it’s good to have a plan. I like that a lot.

Dr. Navarra:  Yeah, it is. And the nature of the relapse is going to determine what people are comfortable with. They may need some time and space to figure out what they want to do based on what’s happened. But you can’t always obviously anticipate what you’re going to do if, but it’s a starting point. 

Rhoda:  Yeah.  I guess that what I would say, and it does happen. And you know what? We’re looking at to our relapse pattern. So what we know is that more people relapse in the first year, then stay sober, but once you hit that 12-month mark, then more people stay sober then relapse. It’s over 60% of the people. 

Rhoda:  Oh Wow. 

Dr. Navarra:  You are committed to recovery stay sober after one year and then I want your listeners to know this. When a partner hits with an addictive disorder, three years of continuous sobriety, that’s actually considered three to five years is considered what’s called the durable point of recovery, which means 86% of the people who reach that three to five-year mark stay sober the rest of their lives.

Rhoda:  Oh, that is, you know, I have actually googled relapse rates and not found a lot of information. I’m so encouraged to hear that. That’s wonderful. It really is.

Dr. Navarra:  It’s helpful to know that, so I know the 12th set frame is, you know, one day at a time, but I think it’s useful information to say, well, all right, so somebody has that three-year mark, especially five years is really considered, now that’s a while. But it’s kind of like cancer survivors. That five-year mark.

I guess the other thing is that the relapse rates for addictive disorders are on par with other life diseases, I guess you’d say life style, like diabetes, hypertension, things where people need to go on medication or diet or stuff. They relapse rates are about the same as some other disorders and that’s important to know.

Rhoda:  That is, I find there’s often codependents in both partners, not just the addicted partner. What do you think about that? We touched on codependence. I just thought you might want to say a little more.

Dr. Navarra:  Yeah. You know, I like to add to the concept. So codependency, I think it’s really important to define what that means to each person. 

Rhoda:  Yes. 

Dr. Navarra:  Because the other term I’m encouraging people to think about when they think about their own reaction to how they’ve adapted to addiction, is called secondhand harm. With that means is I been impacted by this person, my partner’s addiction and there’s trauma that comes with that. Sometimes that’s labeled as codependency when it’s really trauma that’s impacting the person. 

Rhoda:  Oh, good point. Yes. 

Dr. Navarra:  So we have to be careful. I think we have to be careful about w what codependency is and even though people identify that as a recovery issue, I think acknowledging posttraumatic stress disorder, which often accompanies addiction looks at, here’s how I’ve been impacted. So when my heart flutters at 8:30 because you said you’d be home at eight, I don’t see that as codependent. I see that as a trauma reaction to previous episodes of lying and people being out using when they said they’d be home at eight, it’s a normal PTSD reaction.

Rhoda:  Yes. Good. Excellent. Yeah, I like that a lot. I feel like this interview is really offering a lot of balance, you know, that there’s certain ways people think and that we’re offering the other side also and that’s another good point. I find shame to be the biggest stumbling block to recovery. How can relationships improve and handling that landscape?

Dr. Navarra:  Yeah, I worked with a couple, I’m thinking of in particular, it’s one of my training tapes actually with therapists and the husband is an alcohol use disorder and been in recovery for a long period of time when I worked with him, well actually wasn’t that long, was less than a year, come to think of it. But he had a series of relapses over a number of years. So this was his last version and what I helped separate was the impact of addiction from who this person was. So when he was expressing the shame that he felt about the impact of his alcohol use disorder on his children. He was acknowledging there was an impact. 

So that’s good, but he couldn’t separate being the recovering father from the addicted father. So the question moves from, okay, we need to acknowledge the impact of addiction on your kids, on your partner, so on, but what is recovery offering your kids? How is this changing thing in their lives right now? And so I think there’s a place to kind of acknowledge the things that have happened in the past. 

See it as the impact of a disorder that really messes with people’s judgment. We know the parts of the brain that are involved with the addiction and the frontal lobes are the third phase of addiction that has to do with judgment, impulse control, that goes haywire. It just gets hijacked. So people make really bad decisions, do things they look later and go, oh my gosh, what was I thinking? You know, so we have to see this is the impact of a disorder and I need to acknowledge the consequences of that, but I also need to see that this is the impact of that disorder. And I need to see the gift of recovery, what is now being offered to my family and to me and my partner and so there’s that piece I think that can balance out all that shame and guilt that sort of inevitably felt with somebody who looks back over their addictive history helps.

Rhoda:  Yeah. That’s great, I like that. I really do. Any final points about success and relationship during recovery that you’d like to offer? My last question.

Dr. Navarra:  Yeah. They’re this card deck thing I was talking about. There’s two other car decks or concepts that want to talk about really quickly. One would be called your recovery, your wellness and this is where I actually encourage partners to ask their partner what they need to know about their partner’s recovery to help them understand their partner’s world, with the provision of partners could say, I will pick another question or I’d rather not answer that. So we’re bringing recovery into the relationship and able to talk about it. And then the third is a couple recovery. 

And this is where partners decide. No, we haven’t really talked about the impact of recovery. What do you want to talk about in terms of the impact on our family? So that card deck has just a ton of questions of how do you think recoveries impacted her children? How do you think this has impacted our family? What do we want to tell our family? So all these questions that couples then can grapple with to say, let’s acknowledge that recovery is now in our relationship and we need to talk about are we going to serve wine at my mother’s birthday party that we’re having over our house? So all these things need to be sorted through.

Rhoda:  Absolutely. Are those card decks for sale on your website or….?

Dr. Navarra:  Not on my website. It’s to the Gottman Institute.  This is actually part of the collaboration I did with the training for therapists and so this is through the Gottman Institute, so if you go on gottman.com into the bookstore, there’s a recovery card deck and there’s actually four decks. The fourth one has to do with rituals of connection.

Rhoda:  I think I’d like to look into that for myself to be helpful and lend them out, though I often don’t get things back.

Dr. Navarra:  That does happen.

Rhoda:  If you want more information about Dr. Navarra and his services, go to his website, couplerecovery.org he offers couples intensive marathon therapy sessions for those in addiction recovery, that include 15 hours of therapy over three days. He also offers private small groups limited to three couples. The roadmap for the journey workshops for recovering couples. Thanks so much for being here for my audience today. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Navarra:  I appreciate the opportunity to give voice to these ideas and hopefully help your listeners.






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