Fun is something that is all too often missing in relationships.Over several decades when I’ve asked couples, what do you want to do for fun as a couple, not as a family? The response is often blank looks or a downcast glance at feet. It was Plato who said, you can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation
Thriving Together: Relationship Fun Essentials
Fun is something that is all too often missing in relationships.Over several decades when I’ve asked couples, what do you want to do for fun as a couple, not as a family? The response is often blank looks or a downcast glance at feet.
My best friend Patrick died at 40 of AIDS over 30 years ago. My serious self still misses him because he was and remains the most playful person I ever met. He taught me that having fun is part of living your best life. When I listen to the lyrics of the song Why So Serious by German-Canadian singer Alice Merton I always think of Patrick.Today I’d like you to honestly examine if you could benefit from being even better at having fun in your relationship.
Fun in relationships can add to the glue that binds partners together, fostering a deeper connection. It serves as a potent elixir, injecting vitality and joy into the fabric of the relationship. At its core, fun acts as a catalyst, breaking down barriers and encouraging a sense of openness and vulnerability between partners. Think about the feeling of openness when you share a belly laugh with a friend. Shared laughter and enjoyment create cherished memories, strengthening the emotional foundation upon which the relationship thrives.
Moreover, fun in relationships cultivates resilience, acting as a buffer during challenging times. When couples engage in activities that bring them joy, they build a history of enjoyment that can be tapped into during moments of stress or conflict.
Equally important, fun nurtures spontaneity and adventure, breathing new life into the relationship. It encourages partners to explore uncharted territories together through trying new experiences. As I’ve mentioned before the Brain loves novelty and exploring the unknown leads to growth.
Fun infuses relationships with an element of lightheartedness and excitement, preventing monotony and boredom from taking over. Fun balances out the mundane aspects of life because it casts a different, more interesting light on the relationship.
Fun can be a catalyst that ignites passion, encourages growth, and fortifies the emotional bond between partners. The research by Dr John Gottman has found that couples are more happy in their relationships if they have the magic ratio of 5:1 Positive to Negative Interactions. Without a doubt fun is clearly an important way to be positive together.
Since 1992 there have been many studies detailing the importance of fun in relationships. Some studies have even found that having fun together is the most important factor in the sense of friendship, commitment, and the greatest influence on overall marital satisfaction (Markman, et al., 2004).
My guest today to help us improve our ability to have fun as a couple is Mike Rucker PhD who was a charter member of the International Positive Psychology Association. He discovered the pursuit of happiness led him to be more unhappy. He went on to discover “After years of research and trial and error, a second crucial insight clicked into place: We can’t always make ourselves happy, but we all possess the agency to find ways to be more joyful and have more fun.” His newest book is the The Fun Habit came out in January this year. Thanks for joining me today.
So I loved your quote from George Bernard Shaw on your website. We don’t stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. Let’s begin with you helping my audience with a re -understanding of what fun is as step one in building a fun habit.
Mike (05:40.712)
Yeah, so, you know, whenever you begin to research a topic, right, you essentially need to define the construct. And the simplest way to define fun is are you finding pleasure in the things that you’re doing, right? It really is a mindful action, right? And so when we look at happiness as a construct, we tend to look in the rear view mirror, we’re comparing ourselves to the Joneses, you know, how was 2023, you know, we think about happiness as kind of being this,
you know, thing that’s happening. But when we think about it, it’s generally, you know, a lagging indicator. Where fun really is just quite frankly, the thing that I’m doing right now is it’s something that I’m drawn to, that I’m enjoying, or, you know, contrasting against, I would rather be doing something else. And this is something that’s depleting. And so, you know, fun simply defined is, you know, are you finding pleasure in the activities that you’re doing?
Rhoda Sommer (06:39.205)
So it really can be a simple thing. It doesn’t have to be a big complicated, I’m gonna go climb Mount Everest to have fun. You really can do it in small. What I often talk to people about is small, medium, and large ways. Because a lot of times I think people say fun for vacations.
Mike (06:57.276)
No, and that’s right. And when you do that, I mean, there’s so many things to unpack in that simple sort of statement, right? But one is, especially in the Western world, we tend to celebrate high arousal activities as fun. And so folks that are living a great life, right? Let’s say like the gardener that finds so much joy in bringing plants to life and curating a beautiful place where they can find common serenity. And that is, you know, an immense amount of pleasure for them.
I will work with them and they’ll say, I’m just not a fun person because what’s marketed to them, right, is the Instagram influencer kicking their heels at Burning Man or whatever it is. And what a shame, right? They’re probably having more fun than the person that’s out there chasing, you know, some sort of external validation, right? So you’re absolutely right there. Fun comes in so many flavors and we don’t give that enough credit. And the other is that there are levels to it, right? I meant, um,
And so this idea that, you know, whether it’s rooted in meritocracy or the Puritan work ethic or whatever it is, that we need to mortgage our ability to enjoy ourselves because that’s somehow going to get in the way of productivity or a meaningful life. It’s just simply not true. Again, you know, you’ve cited some of the research, there’s a corpus of research to suggest the most productive, successful people are the ones having the most fun. There’s an amazing piece of research.
called the Hadonic Flexibility Principle. You can Google it and it will be one of the first up there, which looked, it was a huge study over tens of thousands of participants. The researchers are MIT, Stanford, and Harvard. So kind of gold standard study. And it looked at folks that use their time wisely. And they wanted to ask a couple of questions. One, the most philosophical, are we pleasure seeking?
creatures, right, because I was kind of the age old. And sure enough, the folks that weren’t really enjoying themselves did go out and seek escapism, right? But it tended to be poor forms of escapism, things like drinking, things like, you know, you’re so depleted by the end of the day, you plop down on the couch and you don’t really even care what’s on the TV. You’re just, you know, essentially trying to displace that frustration or boredom, you know, that, that ill feeling that you’re having. So you’re not really enjoying yourself. You are just kind of tricking yourself.
Mike (09:22.59)
because you are displacing something that doesn’t feel good. But the surprising finding in this was the folks that did actively look for things that they enjoy were finding fulfillment. In the book, I colorfully called it, keeping your fun cup full. These were the folks that after their cup was full, went out and looked for ways to be transformative or harder challenges because they were already finding that enjoyment in life.
And so it was a one -two punch, right? It was not only were they actually enjoying themselves more and being more productive, but then it also became this upward spiral. So instead of, you know, feeling depleted and asking these big questions and being stuck in these states of rumination, they were just out doing it and not really thinking too much about it.
Rhoda Sommer (10:13.61)
It makes me think of the show on Max, Julia, about Julia Childs. And one of the things I just really enjoyed about it is she had so much pleasure in cooking and she funded her show herself because she wanted other people to share in her pleasure in eating and cooking. And it’s so much fun just…
watching it, it makes you want to just go be a great cook and cook something wonderful. But yeah, there’s pleasure in so many ways and we are kind of puritanical in terms of the work ethic. I think that’s really important. I agree with you that we are a society that prizes productivity as we’ve been talking about, which erases fun too easily.
What are the three obstacles and common misconceptions about incorporating fun into relationships that you most often come across?
Mike (11:16.188)
Yeah, so with folks that are kind of stuck with regards to that partnership, right? One is meeting in the middle. So, you know, there’s kind of, you dig in your heels and you’re just not trying to figure out what that common ground is because fun really in the context of a relationship needs to be co -created. And so if you’re always trying to drag the other person around, it can.
you know, sort of get in the way. I’ll just share a personal anecdote that certainly my wife and I suffered that from at the beginning of our relationship. Cause I, one didn’t really, you know, I hadn’t done a lot of this research. I was still more focused on workplace wellness and, and burnout and didn’t appreciate that her style of fun is low arousal. I meant, she wants to be in the spa, you know, like,
A joint massage together is fun for her. Being poolside and sharing what books we’re reading is fun. For me, you know, was going out to see live music or, you know, these really boisterous activities that for her were enjoyable and, you know, episodically, but not necessarily something that you want to do long -term. And so figuring out how we could mesh together, you know, was important. And I think you see couples that do that well thrive.
and couples that are sort of like, oh, well, we just don’t have anything in common. Oftentimes that’s just because they haven’t done the work, right?
Rhoda Sommer (12:44.841)
Yeah, you do have to create it together and it’s a progression. It takes time to kind of solve it. How are we going to fit these two different things together? Yeah, I agree.
Mike (12:57.096)
Yeah. And then scheduling conflicts is easy, right? I mean, that doesn’t need a lot of unpacking, certainly in our busy lives. Um, you know, the couples that don’t schedule things, um, that, that tends to be problematic. And that really is, uh, something that needs to be developed, right? Again, I could give a personal anecdote, even things like intimacy, when they get on the calendar or weird, but, and I’m not, you know, a sex doctor by any stretch, but.
You know, you’ve been hearing that advice a lot lately because if it does get on the schedule, it happens, right? So whether that’s a date night, whether that’s intimacy, whatever it is, it does need to happen because if not, whether it’s friendships, whether, you know, it’s an intimate partnership, even, you know, time with kids and other family members, if you’re not being deliberate about it, just the way our lives are so busy nowadays, you will see months pass by so quickly.
and realize like, holy cow, this person that I’m in love with, I really haven’t even shared any rapport with them in 90 days. And that’s common, right? This isn’t an outlier. So figuring out how to get that onto your schedule, even if it requires compromise with other obligations, that should be your priority anyways, if you’re in a loving relationship. So that would be the second. And then the third, which is so insidious and…
Oftentimes people want to admit it, but it just does happen is comparing yourself to other couples. Every couple is unique, right? And when someone’s like, oh, but they’re always doing this, you know, well, maybe that’s because, you know, one of them has an inheritance where they have a lot more economic freedom than you do. Or, um, you know, maybe it’s just because they’re curated life on Instagram is a lot more appealing than what’s really behind the hood, right? And if you knew what they were really going through.
you would realize that your relationship is a lot stronger than that. So those are the three big ones I see. Not co -creating fun experiences, not getting on the same page with regards to schedule, and then allowing yourself to get jealous because you’re admiring somebody else’s relationship wishing that was your own when you’re not valuing and celebrating the things that make you guys uniquely an interesting couple.
Rhoda Sommer (15:19.016)
Your advice for couples who may feel like they’ve lost the spark and struggle to reignite the fun in the relationship is to develop a fun habit. How do they go about doing that besides scheduling what you mentioned and co -creating what you mentioned? This question is for those who are listening right now and recognize they are fun -starved as you describe in your book.
Mike (15:45.028)
So I will sort of go back to the co -creating idea. What I recommend is creating a fun file. And so doing that together, maybe even doing it, you know, could do it one of two ways. You could do it separately and then bring yours together and figure out with some creativity, what are things that could, you know, intermesh so that you could both have fun. And then, you know, whether you want to do it all as one go or, you know, again, take that pre -step.
come together and figure out how you can create a fun file together of interesting things that you guys wanna do. I suggest boiling it down to eight to 15, because that gives you a breadth of options. But if you get more than 15, it tends to be a bucket list. And we know that long bucket lists tend to just sit there. There’s been some amazing books about folks finding their parents’ bucket list, right? And because it was so long, it was like, oh, they only did four of these things.
8 to 15, there’s some neuroscience behind that number that, like that’s executable. And then, you know, what we already mentioned, use some concepts from behavioral science and pre -commit to it. Make sure after you get that list done, that you’re buying those tickets or you’re putting it on your schedule so that you start to create that habit. Because again, just doing the work isn’t gonna, you know, it’s sort of just halfway there, right? So.
how can you take that list and then pick something from that eight or 15 that you can do almost immediately? And what I found is just that taste, right? And I would imagine you found it in your work as well. You know, two or three things, because maybe the first one will blow up in a magnificent fashion and you’re like, oh, but after two or three goes, people just realize they feel better. If you recall in the book, you know, she’s actually a family friend, but I tell the story about Cindy who wants to,
they became empty nesters really had to reintroduce themselves to each other. And because they did that in a magical way, right? They did it with a level of curiosity and realized there needed to be some grace because there might be some aspects because they really didn’t see how each other had matured over the last 10 years. There might be aspects that, you know, that they don’t find appealing, but ultimately being able to rediscover each other was this magical gift. And so, um, lot of people.
Mike (18:06.15)
I would suggest doing that, especially if you feel stuck, you know, because oftentimes those people that feel stuck have grown so apart, there’s this opportunity to rediscover one another.
Rhoda Sommer (18:18.234)
And I think it also, I loved what you said about curiosity and also thinking of it as an experiment. You’re experimenting, so you’re gonna sample, you’re gonna try, you’re gonna see what fits, what doesn’t fit, and maybe expand your own individual interests as well as the two of you as a couple. And that’s never a bad thing to have, you know, discover things that really fit.
Mike (18:43.552)
Yeah, and if it’s so hard to find something communal, there’s something magical, as long as there’s still love there, of sharing what you love with someone else. So if you are in such a place like, we just don’t have the common ground, but we still love each other, find experiences where, let’s say, again, using myself as an example, I can go off and do something adventurous, that’s kind of crazy and spikes my arousal.
My wife engages in a really enjoyable book and then we come together at dinner and share each other’s experiences. That’s as much a loving act through the let and see of fun as doing something together because you’re still enjoying what the other person loves. And I would suggest that’s just as powerful.
Rhoda Sommer (19:30.995)
I like that. In your book, you talk about jumping back into the daring adventure and reclaim fun. Say more about this.
Mike (19:41.396)
So, so many of us live habituated lives, right? And we’re just, we don’t want to admit it. I think there’s only 168 hours in a week. And so oftentimes I have folks kind of mindfully look at how they spend their time. And most people are blown away, one, about how much time they kind of waste, right? I meant with those health meters in both Android and Apple, it’s easier to see nowadays, but.
you know, if you do a true audit, like, oh my goodness, 80 % of what I do, even in addition to sleep, is sort of the same week in and week out. And so if you’re not finding any opportunities of things that are really lighting you up, it’s a beautiful wake up call to kind of invite yourself back into all of these things that life has to offer. And so that’s really just an invitation to the fact that so many of us…
really are living these fun, starved lives because we’ve habituated our lives in a way that time is just kind of passing us by. As you alluded to in the intro, we know through neuroscience that once we do do that, where our routine is in such a rhythm that our brain kind of realizes it doesn’t need to encode new information because it doesn’t need to learn anything and there’s nothing really interesting, we start to lose neuroplasticity. So it’s not just about, you know, living a life that’s beautiful with this beautiful
tapestry of different experiences, there’s also a lot of psychological and physiological benefits to making sure that we’re adding novelty to what we do. And so, you know, it was just kind of a colorful way to say we do need to invite ourselves back into all of these things that life has to offer us.
Rhoda Sommer (21:21.9)
which means leaving the comfort of the familiar and being willing to explore. And I think we’re so anxiety -ridden as a culture that we hesitate. We moved back into the city when we had lived in suburbia for our kids’ education, and people actually were afraid to visit. I’m not kidding, because we moved to a working -class neighborhood with a phenomenal view. And…
Yes, it’s diverse. And I just kind of made fun of them because it was ridiculous. But we get so stuck in how we’re supposed to live and the boring way. My neighborhood is not boring and it’s really kind of a fun place. There’s artists and dancers and all kinds of cool people.
But it’s not the cookie cutter thing. And I just think that it’s amazing to me how people value comfort so highly that they give up exploring, and that’s not good. I found myself nodding my head in agreement with this statement you made in your book. I’ve now arrived at the belief that my deliberate concerns of being happy only drew attention to what was missing & making me more unhappy.
Could you share more about the research on this and why your shift to fun was more meaningful? I thought that was such a cool shift you made.
Mike (22:51.888)
Thank you. Like most researchers, I was standing on the shoulders of giants, right? In the book, I give a nod. This research has been done really well. It’s been replicated, but the researcher I really like in this area is Dr. Iris Maus out of University of California, Berkeley. And what she’s found is that this over prescription of happiness, right? Now we have a term for it, right? In 2020s, we call it toxic positivity.
But for quite some time, right, we were wearing those good vibes only shirts. And what happened was once we got people to always ruminate on, you is my life good enough? Am I happy enough? Am I doing as good as the Joneses next door? All of that wasted energy that we could actually be in, you know, engaged in fun activities was going away. But what was worse is we were stuck in the state of rumination. Again, I kind of alluded to it earlier, right? We were always looking in the rear view mirror.
So now, not only are we not having fun, but we’re spending our lives in this introspection of like, why? Right? When all we have to do is flip the switch back and go make a silly fun list and start doing things. It’s that simple, but instead, you know, it was almost like cognitive behavioral therapy in reverse, where you’re stuck with all of these thoughts like, why isn’t life good enough? Instead of just enjoying the gifts that you have. And so…
You know, it’s rooted in mindfulness, which, you know, has long been studied and most people understand the merits of it, but it’s really just about having that action orientation of like, I can go out and have fun right now, despite my emotional circumstance, right? Cause emotions are complicated. You know, affect, we all share affect, right? Anxiety has these physiological components, but emotion is uniquely ours. And so even if you’re in a state, you know, in the book I unpack,
the death of my brother and I needed to sort of sort out that trauma. But it didn’t mean that I couldn’t go out and enjoy my friend’s company or go out and do the things that I wanted to do. And so it’s a really broad based idea, but what we now know is that the folks that are overly concerned with happiness as an outcome are paradoxically some of the most unhappy people.
Rhoda Sommer (25:09.7)
Yeah, I was always frankly very suspicious, but I’m a Gestalt therapist and I really am about the polarities in the yin and yin and yang and you can’t just be so lopsided on one focused side. And so, and I’m more Asian in that idea of, you know, that they suffering and joy go together and that’s what creates a life. And I think Americans, we get stuck on this,
happiness ladder to success or something that doesn’t really fit who we want to be. And that is really important.
Mike (25:44.29)
Well, and even my tribe you’ve seen walk it back, right? I mean, Barbara Fredrickson has expanded her notion of broaden and build. And then, you know, all the folks out of Penn that used to, you know, happiness was sort of the ultimate goal are now talking more about emotional flexibility. Because we know that if you erode emotional flexibility, and again, you know, my confession in the book was I had lost that ability then you are really doing harm.
Rhoda Sommer (26:17.706)
Okay, all right. I agree. I love that emotional flexibility. Yes, that is the new thing. But it seems much more true and accurate. So I think that’s great. Would you share your play model and the four types of activity that people should be more aware of? I really love the breakdown in the four categories.
Mike (26:39.404)
Ah, thank you. So first of all, because it’s kind of visual, I would suggest if anyone’s kind of following along, you can Google Rucker Play model and it will come right up so you can actually see the image. But play stands for pleasing, living, agonizing, and yielding. And the pleasing category is kind of a nod to the fact that there are all of these really easily accessible, joyful activities throughout our day and week. And so many of us are not prioritizing them.
even just being mindful of like walking your pet, right? Or making sure you’re taking time to read a good book or making sure that you’re engaging with people. If you’re an extrovert and you’re feeling kind of lonely, these things that are really easily accessible, making sure that if you’re looking at, you know, again, that 168 hours of your week and you don’t see anything in that pleasing quadrant, that you likely can change your circumstance. Those are.
You know, there’s some really low hanging fruit there. Um, and you know, in the book, you know, that I cited some work for Matthew Killingsworth and Daniel Gilbert. There’s this concept of mind wandering. We know that folks that are living those habituated lives that kind of don’t enjoy the things that they’re doing, um, tend to kind of mindlessly go throughout their day. And there’s a high correlation with being unhappy with that. So if you can change your circumstance and most people can, um, it’s likely a good strategy.
Living is looking for that daring adventure that we suggested. And so, you know, when we get out of our comfort zone, that is where growth lives. That’s where, you know, if you’re really lucky, transcendence can come from. And so if you don’t see any activities in that quadrant, you know, now that you’ve kind of identified it through this model, inviting yourself into that, whatever that looks like for you, it might be spirituality, it might be reconnecting to nature, you know, through something vigorous.
For a lot of folks, myself included, it’s getting back to mastering a skill that I kind of gave up because I was too busy. So whatever living looks like for you, but if you don’t find anything in the living quadrant, when you kind of look back at how you’re spending your time, it really is that call to action to figure out, you how can you get back to something that invigorates you? And then agonizing is, you know, we all have agonizing activities as I’ve made really clear in the book. We can’t get rid of all of those.
Mike (29:04.484)
But generally, if we look at them through a watchful lens, there is ways that we can change our circumstance. If you come from a place of privilege, oftentimes, if you think about what your time is worth versus what it might, the cost of outsourcing something that you really don’t like to do, it could be approaching that problem differently. Let’s say something that is mundane is email, right? Like maybe can you gamify it or is there a…
You know simply adding enjoyable music. Could you change your circumstance to make something that you don’t like? You know more pleasurable and then the lowest hanging fruit is the yielding category and those are things that we do because we’re simply bored We’re just trying to pass the time again, you know, oftentimes we’re trying to displace Frustration or boredom so mindlessly scrolling social media, you know doom watching the news because you know, you need to hear one more time
about how bad things are or whatever it is. If you can kind of put a cap on that time, especially if you see it getting out of control, what an amazing opportunity, right, to exchange that time with things that are more enjoyable. So the play model, you know, in its entirety is just a way to kind of divide up how you spend your time in a very simple way so that hopefully you can make some better choices.
Rhoda Sommer (30:28.258)
Is there anything you wanna add? We already talked about how scheduling can be important to making things work, whether it’s having sex or it’s having fun. Scheduling makes things work. You carve it out, like exercise. You have to carve it out in your schedule. But is there anything you can add? Because people are so caught up in being frantic and busy. I had a woman yesterday and I said to her,
You know, I think your relationship is really fragile and I think you’ve really got to spend some time together as a couple and I’m kind of tired of asking for it. You know, there’s just, you’ve got to figure this out because it’s, it’s, you’re both so unhappy and I don’t know if you can recover if you don’t spend some time together.
Mike (31:17.42)
Yeah, so I don’t know the complexity of the situation that, you know, sometimes that’s avoidance, right? Like it, you know, it becomes a matter of what are your priorities. What I will say, which is more tactical advice, if it really is that you just live a busy life, again, I would suggest looking at the whole corpus of studies that suggest that the folks that are able to create transition rituals.
so they have time for leisure and time for, you know, pro -social behavior, are not only more productive, but way happier. So if it is a scheduling issue, figuring out what can you agree is the time that your work is over, you know, even if it’s 7 p .m., so then you can schedule a time with your partner after that. And so that transition ritual needs to be clean, right? Like, and as bizarre as it is, because I…
you know, it seemed even a little woo woo to me, but having a true ritual, you know, whether or not it’s, you know, walking around the block so you can kind of clear your brain, whether it’s, you know, the way you shut down your computer, but just the fact that, okay, my work day is done, so you’re not, you know, that cognitive load isn’t coming into your relationships. I mean, the example I often give that is such a prime.
for everyone in the household to say you’re not there yet is folks that walk into the house still on a business call, right? I mean, I still have young children and I’m worried about screen time with them, right? But what kind of example am I setting where my wife’s like, okay, he’s not home yet. And then my kids are like, oh, the screen’s more important than me. I’ll get on my iPads too. So the answer to your question with a piece of tactical advice is how can you create a transition from…
where you’re quote unquote busy to a place where you can be present to your partner so you can figure out how to create a better bond with them.
Rhoda Sommer (33:18.164)
Oh, I’m so glad I went ahead and asked that because I really thought you might have something to add. And I just think it’s such an important thing to carve out the time. Could you share some effective strategies or techniques to infuse more joy and excitement into a long -term relationship? Other than what we’ve discussed.
Mike (33:46.062)
No, I think there’s a couple things, right? So one, it is figuring out how can you rediscover each other? And so I know we already covered that a little bit, but to go a bit further, like, start to prod. There’s some interesting strategies too. This one isn’t my own idea, but one that I know couples have found helpful. If you Google 36 questions, there are all sorts of interventions online where you can start to play games.
You know, that really ask questions that maybe your identity wouldn’t have asked your partner, but that are leading. So you’re like, Oh my goodness, I didn’t know that. Right. And so that sense of discovery can start to bring in new things. Like you like that. I never knew that about you. Like, let’s explore that. Right. And so there are all sorts of ways to sort of rediscover what each other likes. And then I would say just being open, right. Um, which you’ve already alluded to. And then lastly,
Approach it with some grace. Again, we covered this, but if you really can’t find that common ground, then just celebrate each other. Um, you know, like if you hate boating, but your partner loves it, let them go off boating and then come back and, and then just at least enjoy what they have to say about it and vice versa. Cause there has to be that reciprocity. Yeah. But since you work with relationships, my understanding from folks like yourself that are smart in this area, what’s actually.
the most interesting, it’s not about the shared experience, it’s about the ability to learn from one another, right? And so certainly that connection through shared experiences is really important. We know that it releases oxytocin, which is a lot more important than the excitement of dopamine with regards to relationships and feeling connected. But from a psychological standpoint, my understanding is once your life gets habituated, even if you’re doing fun things,
If there isn’t anything to share, that can be a component of why you feel bored. So sometimes having fun separately is, again, you know, we said it before, but can be as important as having fun together.
Rhoda Sommer (35:53.767)
Yes, and on my communication page of therapyideas .net, I have 80 questions. I’ve had them there for years, maybe 20, 30 years. And then there’s a link for 80 more questions. So for free. I’m not making any money on it, but I think those…
Mike (36:07.94)
There you go.
Rhoda Sommer (36:12.614)
thinking about questions and just doing things a little bit differently. I’ve had people print them out and talk to each other and I think that’s a really cool thing to add into your life. What are the enemies of fun that we all need to avoid? I love that.
Mike (36:32.292)
So especially in the context of relationships, I think one is escapism, right? If you’re doing something really just to avoid, you know, whatever that pain is in your life, then you need to be careful. And then I would also suggest in the context of relationships, even if you’re enjoying yourself, but then you come back home and feel guilty about it. So like it might’ve been fun in the moment, which is important, but then the…
you know, longitudinal sort of effect of it ends up being more painful. I was working with someone, I think I addressed it in the book, that loved golfing, but would like go out the whole weekend, you know, and do this and then skirt his domestic duties at home. So there wasn’t a good work -life blend. And so I think those two things you need to be careful of, right? Make sure that there’s a social agreement with your partner, especially if you’re doing something outside of the partnership.
But then also if you’re doing it, and this might hold true to the example that you gave, simply because it is just broken, you wanna look at that again because ultimately that’s gonna wear you down. I mean, these things are depleting and you’re really just escaping pain. You’re not truly having fun. It’s not for your own betterment. And those things are gonna feel hollow. Again, in the book, I colorfully called it the nothing.
Rhoda Sommer (37:56.319)
I like the hollow though. That’s that would be accurate. Yeah, I do.
Mike (38:00.414)
Um, then, you know, the other is if you are suffering from poor mental hygiene, or do you think, you know, you have a biological predisposition to, um, not having fun addressing that first. Um, you know, I think, especially for the work that I do, it’s always key to bring that up. Um, because there are some folks that, you know, because of where they’re at. And so making sure that you have a solid foundation first before you worry.
Rhoda Sommer (38:22.18)
Absolutely.
Mike (38:29.976)
about your own joy and the joy of others becomes an important first step because again, that’s a medical condition. It’s not something that a simple psychological tool is going to fix. And that is such a facet of toxic positivity. It needs to be better addressed, right? And then the last is outcome focused. So especially, you know, in the context of partnerships, like the value of this should be sharing each other’s company. If…
You know, you brought up that once a year vacation. Another problem with that that’s so prevalent in the West is if you save it all up for this one thing and you go to Aruba and the whole week it’s raining and then you just hate each other, you know, because the whole thing sucked and you’re worried about money. Instead of the fact that you guys got to spend some interesting time together, I really see the dichotomy in there where if the…
you know, sort of value is just the shared experience with someone that you love and it doesn’t matter. Like that’s a beautiful place if it’s like, we really need to knock this out of the park and our Disney vacation needs to be amazing, you know, and the broken ride ruins that whole experience for you. That can be a real challenge, right? So to the extent that you can decouple the outcome, because the outcome really is an enemy of fun oftentimes, especially if it, you know, you don’t meet that goal.
Rhoda Sommer (39:55.293)
One of the things I was thinking when there was we were in Florida visiting in the winter and the weather was pretty bad and I was thinking about Feeling bad for all the unhappy people and my husband and I we were okay with it We had brought a lot of stuff We knew it was gonna it was gonna be not good weather and we had a lot of other fun things to do And I just I think you have to kind of think that way that again It would be a little bit of emotional flexibility in there, you know, because when you anchor yourself to one outcome
then you’re kind of locked in and then you’re not happy, which is so easy.
Mike (40:28.96)
Yeah, and there are two pieces there, right? Because certainly, and I think we talked about this in the pre -interview, there are gonna be some folks that are gonna roll their eyes, right? Like, you know, wait, you’re saying that I can’t have expectations about my vacation? I get it, you know? What I am suggesting is that what you just shared, like if you can have some escape routes if things don’t go your way, you’re probably gonna be better off. But what I would also suggest is saving something up for some grandiose.
that only happens once a year, now you’re only giving it one shot, right? So what I think would be more pragmatic that might hit or have a broader reach with regards to the audience is you really do wanna break things up because if you do want to go in and be like, well, I really want this to be great, then give yourself several chances throughout the year. So if one of them does go wrong, then you still have three other ones that are gonna go right.
And so I think both of those are different pieces of advice, but can be helpful. Did you see that? I just want to.
Rhoda Sommer (41:32.179)
Absolutely. What do you suggest that could help couples be more open to trying new things, which we’ve mentioned a couple of times, open to uncertainty, because it can be hard to leave the comfort of the familiar.
Mike
So I think baby steps is certainly something that we haven’t talked about. But yeah, if you are feeling uncomfortable or certainly something’s new and you’re like, I want to take this easy, don’t feel rushed. Figure out what it is that you can kind of ease into that new activity. And that actually has a host of different benefits, right? So one, you get towards this path.
of sort of understanding what that is. And so everyone’s gonna have a different comfort level. And it might be that the only reason that you didn’t try that, you know, quote unquote, high arousal activity is that you needed to be led into it. And you were always told to jump off the bridge, right? Because for some people that’s their jam. And so figuring out what is the path, you know, that gets you there oftentimes can be helpful because then you can break it down into steps, whatever that happens to be, right? And then,
You know, the last thing I’d like to say is that if you don’t feel like taking risks, but your jam is still kind of, you know, discovering new things in the things that you’re already doing, that’s okay. I mean, you know, there isn’t a one size fits all recipe for everyone. And I always want, you know, especially in my space where we talk about play a lot of times, you know, everything is, you know, kind of this boisterous sort of voice. And that’s good because, you know, high energy is fun.
and it’s engaging, it gets people involved. But at the end of the day, if you have flexed your curiosity and ultimately you really just wanna explore the territory that you built for yourself, as long as you are integrating novel things into the things that you’re already doing, that’s fine. You don’t need to go and buy a ticket on Virgin Galactica and go to the moon.
Rhoda Sommer (43:48.107)
Okay, any actionable steps or exercises that you might want to end with?
Mike (43:58.504)
Yeah, I mean, we didn’t really get into it. So I think, you know, a great way to end would be, you know, go ahead and look at that 168 hours that you spent the week before, um, Google the play model and then see, you know, how many opportunities in your week are you integrating fun? And if you’re not, you know, try and schedule just two or three. I mean, if you think about it right in the context of 168 hours, even if you’re working 50 hours a week,
reclaiming two or three hours should be fairly doable. And I would suggest do that for two to three weeks and you’ll see something magical happen. Not only will you now start having a little bit more fun, but if you’re honest and check in with yourself, you’ll see that you have more vigor and vitality to do the things that might not be fun. So you’ll actually tackle them a little bit earlier and you’ll start to understand better where your boundaries are so that you can slowly but surely get in this upward spiral.
rather than the downward spiral that so many of us find ourselves in.
Rhoda Sommer (45:00.771)
All right, Michael Rucker, thank you so much for being with us today. And please share with my audience your website and the name of your book again.
Mike (45:10.984)
Sure, no problem. So, and thanks for that, by the way. I write about the science of fun at michaelrucker .com. The fun habit, the hardback came out last year, but it’s being re -released as a paperback January 23rd, 2024. So it’s available in hardback now, but if you’re a paperback type person, that will be coming out in a couple of weeks.
Rhoda Sommer (45:35.395)
All right. Thank you, listening listeners. I really appreciate you being with us through the whole podcast episode today. I appreciate you all so much. I hope that you take some valuable information from this episode and apply it in one way or another to your own relationships. Please share the episode with others and leave a review so others know we’re worth subscribing to. Thanks.
