Trauma deeply challenges our sense of safety and security in the world, which often has an impact on relationships. It’s natural for those who have suffered trauma to feel that building close relationships is frightening because they don’t want to experience more hurt. Someone who is coping with trauma may feel disconnected from themselves as well as their partner.
According to the National Child Traumatic Stress Network, 78 percent of children reported more than one traumatic experience before the age of 5.In a 2004 study by Cook, Riggs (et al) trauma survivors reported a decrease in relationship satisfaction, impaired expression of emotions, sexual activity, intimacy & communication.
I often recommend movies to help experience deeper understanding & the Russian movie Beanpole has made a lot of top 10 lists & is in Oscar contention & it depicts trauma in 2 very different women who survive the siege of Stalingrad in WW2, very painful to watch.
My guest today to assisting understanding more about trauma is Juliane Taylor Shore who is in practice in Austin,Texas. Jules has been a specialist in trauma recovery and in couples counseling for 12 years, and loves to work experientially because the implicit mind, where traumatic memory lives speaks through the body & imagery. She wants to help people find the love and connection they have always longed for. Thanks for joining me today Jules to help us with this important topic. (you respond)
My first question today is that it is understandable that trauma survivors may have very high needs for safety…so what is your advice to partners about how to approach & support someone’s higher safety needs?
Rhoda: First question today is that it is understandable that trauma survivors may have very high needs for safety. So what is your advice to partners about how to approach and support someone’s higher safety needs?
Juliane: Yeah. So I think it’s important to think about why is safety so important.
So the autonomic nervous system, I’m a brain science geek.
Rhoda: I love that…
Juliane: It’s so important. So the autonomic nervous system actually scans your system for safety and danger four times every single second.
Rhoda: Wow.
Juliane: I know. So basically my brainstem is looking down into my body, my heart area, my belly brain, and it’s going, am I okay? Four times every single second. And if the answer to that question is yes, then there’s a whole series of stuff my body is now prepped to do, like connection and bonding and play and making love and rest and digestion.
And if the answer to that question is no, then my body preps for a different set of skills to protect myself and all those other skills are now not physiologically supported. So I can’t connect and bond while I’m scared at the same time.
Rhoda: Yeah. That makes sense.
Juliane: So safety is important for everybody. And why is it harder for somebody with a trauma history to find safety, is because they live through memory. Like everybody, everybody here is walking around, having a lot of memories up, so that we can process the world.
I can look over in my office and I go, that’s a chair, and I notice sill on that. Why do I know that? It’s because I’m living through my memory and I don’t have to rediscover the chair. Like my daughter is now seven, but when she was one, she would have crawled to the chair and like tried to eat it, right?
Because she didn’t know what it was. So thank God we all lived through our memory, but for a person who has a lot of trauma in their history, what’s really hard is that they were shown a lot of different kinds of things that could be dangerous to them. And now when I look out in the world, oops, a weird sound could feel dangerous and all of a sudden my body is in that, am I okay? No. And now I’m in my protection mode. Does that make sense?
Rhoda: Yes, absolutely.
Juliane: Yeah. So the safety needs are higher, because there’s a wider range of stimulus that’s going to make me feel scared. A really important thing that I think couples do. And so I’m a couple specialists and a trauma recovery specialist, and I’ve really married those in my work. And actually, my main caseload is people who have trauma histories who are also a couple.
Rhoda: That’s great.
Juliane: And so I see them inside of couple’s therapy. And so one of the things I work with my people on is getting clear and for the person who is a trauma survivor, it’s making that U-turn and just getting curious with yourself, huh? I wonder what different stuff my body perceives as dangerous. Huh? I wonder about that. And we can start to get clear about that. And if I’m the person who’s with a partner who maybe has a trauma history, I can be curious with them.
Oh, what different stuff makes you feel scared, hun? What different stuff does your system perceive as scared? And so we can have a shared language about it and we can start to think about, Oh, well, is there anything we could do? Could we co-create practices between you and me, that are going to change that, that are going to either help you learn a new learning? Oh this was scary then, but not scary now.
And, or, Hey, that’s a really hard zone. Let’s not do that. So like, here’s an example. If I was working with somebody who had a lot of shouting in their house and that was often followed by physical violence.
One thing I’ve really worked with that couple to stay away from, is raised voices, raised voices are going to be super triggering for your partner. So there is point to be mad. Can we speak about that anger, but without the raised voice?
Rhoda: Yeah. So understanding what your partner’s triggers are and trying to have that conversation, so that there’s clarity for both of you. That’s great. Okay. My second question, piggybacks on the first, often trauma survivors have very high expectations as a way of determining safety with a constant vigilance for potential harm. How can trauma survivors begin to look at the way high expectations can push partners away?
Juliane: Yeah. This is one that’s so hard. If we want to guarantee our safety and the truth is, and actually I was listening to a podcast of yours. It was like season two. So it was ages back. But you were talking about how hard it is to be vulnerable.
Rhoda: Yes.
Juliane: And this is the thing. Vulnerability is risky. And so it is going to feel scary. And sometimes when scary doesn’t equal just emotional security for us, but it could have equaled like physical danger or really hard emotional or psychological abuse.
If that’s my history, then I’m gonna want to have lots and lots of safety guarantee that I’m not taking risks in that thing that happened before won’t happen again. But the problem is, is that so protector driven, right? My protective system is now in charge. That means my connection bonding is not online, oh-oh.
So here are tips. One, get clear with yourself about what kind of safety you would be looking for. Two, check your expectations. Are they actually reasonable and three, come to your partner with vulnerability, and if you’re one of those people who has a trauma history, but has not told your partner about that, I have a lot of curiosity about that. Not that you have to go into detail. I think empowerment and healing with trauma work is so important.
Your story is yours and who you tell it to is your journey. And if you’re in a long-term partnership and you’re getting triggered a lot, it’s going to be super confusing for your partner. And so it might be helpful, not that they know every detail, but may be that you let them in on, Oh, you know, there are hard things that happened.
And here’s what I feel comfortable in sharing. And if you’re the partner of somebody with some history, just know that empowering is such an important part of trauma healing. Because when people have trauma, they got trapped and well, felt really alone and empowerment is going to be a big way to come back from that. And so we don’t want to push them to, if you loved me, you would tell me your story.
No, we don’t want that. I’m giving everybody a warning about that. Do not do that. Let them tell you their story, just understand that whatever it is, they feel safe and revealing or they risk revealing, that one that’s hyper vulnerable. So be gentle. And two, that them owning how much they tell you is actually in their empowerment and healing journey.
Rhoda: Yeah. I think that narrative being able to own your story and the more you can own it with less charge, when people ask me what progress is for them, I always say, you know, it’s when you’re in a more neutral place, even a positive or a negative charge, they’re still unfinished business lingering. But when it’s kind of neutral and quiet, it doesn’t disappear, but it doesn’t have that loaded-ness.
Juliane: Yeah, exactly.
Rhoda: Yeah. So this question also fits right in, silence can often be seen as safety. So the currency of power is to withhold. And I actually, wasn’t thinking so much about the particular story or narrative, but the moments where somebody may feel stepped on, but not sharing, and if there is sharing, it might be waiting until there’s accusation. So how can communication be improved by both partners, when trauma is in the mix?
Juliane: I love going Meta. So when I say Meta, what I mean is talking about a process. So if you’re a person who needs quiet in moments or needs to hold back a little bit and process some things, before you come out and talk to your partner about it, or if you feel more empowered or safer, when you’re in a space where your voice is a little bit more quiet, I would actually talk about that.
So rather than in the moment when something got sticky or when I’m using silence to keep myself safer, that’s probably not the moment to talk about it, but let’s say there’s a moment where we’re just taking a walk and we’re in the park, and do people get to do that anymore.
Right. But let’s say we’re having a lovely moment. And now I feel a little bit safer about talking about my process. One of the big ways I help my couples is to get out of the content and come up above it and just look, Hey, there are moments when I’m going to need to be quiet.
Could I send you some sort of hand signal that would tell you that’s what I need right now? And we can just both know, Oh, you’re increasing your safety. So I’m thinking about a couple who had a little hand signal and when she did it, he said, I’m so glad you’re keeping yourself safe right now.
Rhoda: Wow. I’m big on hand signals, but I honestly don’t know if anybody’s actually ever taken it home and done it, you know?
Juliane: And can I say something about that as a take home point for everybody listening? Is practices are actually the thing that changed neural Networks practice
Rhoda: Yes, the practice.
Juliane: Thinking about them doesn’t change anything, thinking about them, like, is it fun, a curiosity exercise, but actually doing it. It’s what’s going to change your brain.
Rhoda: And, you know, buying the book and not reading it, it’s the same thing, you know, and it’s really is about creating those new neural pathways. Now this is something you may not be aware of, but I’ve been real excited about it, because it makes sense to me, that if you can play with a new way of being, laugh, make it light, sing it operatically, be light and playful.
My understanding is, the brain will change much more quickly with maybe 20, 30 practices. However, if you… and think about little toddlers, that’s what they do when they’re learning and their brains are growing a hundred miles a minute. They’re just playing with everything they do. So if there can be a little lightness and spirit also, I think that can help.
Juliane: Amen. And you’re a hundred percent right about that research, that it actually takes less time over the number of practices. So when you’re taking in positive information, it actually takes about 20 seconds or so through your system to register positive information, where it takes one quarter of one second to register negative information.
So it’s longer on the being present with it side, but it’s shorter in the practices side because our brains love doing things that we find joyful. And I often get asked actually, because I have a whole training center here, where I trained therapists to work in interpersonal neurobiology.
And they come by my office after work and they’re like, Juls, are you sure you do trum-work, because people are laughing in your office awful lot, and this is the thing, is the healing from trauma is actually a joyful experience. And the more we infuse play in it, the faster your brain is going to change.
Rhoda: Yeah, that’s right. Okay. I’ve had several partners of trauma survivors, feel that their own experiences are often ignored. Sometimes it’s an erased sex life. Sometimes it’s their need to be cared for, if they are ill, how can this be addressed?
Juliane: I think we’ve got to use our voices here. I don’t think it’s reasonable to say, Hey, this big need of mine just isn’t going to get met, because my partner is a trauma survivor.
Rhoda: I think people do that though. And then they get that quiet resentment that just layers.
Juliane: Exactly. And so I think it’s about speaking up, but I also think it’s about speaking up with a lot of relational health. So what I love to do is acknowledge what I’m imagining upfront, acknowledge that it’s a story I made up. And so I’m curious and checking it out and making an invitation to address a need that I have. So let’s say that I’m married to a person with a sexual abuse history, and I’m noticing that she’s doing work on her trauma and our sex life is now like non-existent, I might come up to her and say, Hey, sweetie.
I’m guessing that a lot is coming up for you around our sex life, as you’re doing your work with the sexual abuse history. And I know I could be making that up hun, and I’m feeling a little lonely in that department, and I’m wondering if you’re open to having a conversation with me about what’s going on for you. And I can tell you what’s going on for me.
Rhoda: I love the addition of adding the loneliness, which is that vulnerability. I think that’s really important.
Juliane: I love that you pointed that out, because I think that’s a take home for people, when I’m addressing an issue. Probably there’s a need that’s not getting met, and if you can say that part out loud, and with the vulnerability, you’re more likely to invite someone into a connection conversation with you. And if you come at them with a complaint, I think of it as like future positive focus.
I would like to look at this and work something out with you in future, because there’s this little pain thing coming up for me, can you help me? Right. Rather than past negative focus, our sex life is in the tubes since you started therapy, that’s not going to get you what you want.
Rhoda: No, and complains and critiques, is building those walls and you want to be able to get them down so that you can really have a conversation.
Juliane: Yeah.
Rhoda: One partner of a trauma survivor said to ask you, what he can do when he floods with anxiety and doesn’t know what the right answer is, and how to be supportive to his partner. What can he do to be more supportive when he’s afraid constantly of making things worse?
Juliane: Of course. And I just want to give a shout out to anyone who is with, even if you have your own trauma, if you’re with a person who is a trauma survivor, this feeling is going to come up a ton. It’s like, I want to do the right thing. I care about my person. He’s like, I love her. I want to be there for her, how? I’m going to mess it up.
And because so many different stimuluses are thought of as dangerous, we get feedback that we mess it up a lot. Oh no. So my heart just goes out to the clients asking this question and I want to give you hard news. That’s also good news, is that there is no getting it right.
And that’s hard, because one, it’s super nuanced. I think of like; what keys does that trauma survivor need to heal is as unique as a fingerprint to them. Nobody’s going to tell them exactly the map to healing. But I do have a ton of trust in their bodies [unintelligible 21:03], and that there is a path to healing for them and their body knows the way. And we’re just going to get out of the way and let that unfold.
So first, trust in the larger processes, it’s kind of like trusting that childbirth, that my body knows how to birth a child. I didn’t have to figure out how to get my kid out, right? My body did that for me. She was in charge in that moment. That’s actually what trauma healing is like too. And so you’re probably not going to get it right.
And even if somebody like me, who sees people like this 20, 30 hours a week, and that’s all I do, is trauma recovery work. I still don’t know the right answer. So there isn’t one, and there’s gonna come a lot of ease in that, because if you don’t have to figure out the right answer, you could come up with a supportive answer. And what I do is move Meta. So I’m going to say move Meta again and again, when it comes to this stuff. So let’s go, Hey, hun, I’m noticing I have a lot of fear, because I want to be there for you in a way that helps. Can we brainstorm that together? Can we figure out anything I could do? Like is touching you a good idea or not touching you better? Can you check in with your skin?
Like last night it was really hard and you’re crying and I didn’t know if you wanted me to touch you. Can you ask inside your body and just check out, Oh, if James had touched me in that moment, would that have felt okay?
And then they’ll be able to tell you, you know what, when I’m stressed like that, don’t touch me, but don’t leave. Oh, now I got a way to be supportive.
Rhoda: That’s great.
Juliane: And then we have a practice and now we do the practice, because if you don’t do the practice, you don’t change the brain.
Rhoda: All right. I’m curious what you think about mills and Turnball’s work from 2004, called lover. Listen, observe, verify, empathize, reassure. Is that a good approach?
Juliane: It sure is. And there are so many, there really are. I think that’s a great approach. I think that I want to pull out the important pieces of it.
Rhoda: Yes, do.
Juliane: Verifying is so important.
Rhoda: Could you say what that means in your mind?
Juliane: Yeah. So let’s talk about, if I am trauma survivor walking out in the world and allowed noise goes on around me and I have a flinch response. A lot of times, people around me look at me like I’m crazy, and that’s not helpful. It’s hard. It’s hard to have shame on top of the terror experience.
And so when we’re validating the other person’s experience, like not saying that you’re right about my intention. So let’s say I got agitated and I raised my voice and my partner looks back at me and says, Oh, you triggered me, right. You probably meant to hurt me, right. Well, I’m going to have a good boundary. I’m not going to take that part in, because I know I wasn’t trying to hurt them, but I’m also going to validate and verify their experience of it.
You’re right. I did raise my voice. I remember us talking about your dad, that must’ve been scary for you. So this is so important that I can validate the internal experience and verify, this is the thing, you’re right. This is a thing, right.
And then the reassurance part is the other piece I really want to pull out. So people with trauma histories, they’ve probably got left a lot. They got left alone, because when we look at the nervous system and what is it, that’s creating trauma. It’s a coupling of overwhelm plus a sense of aloneness.
And even if my trauma has something to do with interpersonal abuse, so let’s say I got hit as a kid. I just want to be really clear that that parent who hit me, if that happened, that parent wasn’t really with me in that moment, I became a non-person to them in that moment, right. So I got left. I got psychologically left.
So I’m not talking about physically left, like I’m alone in space. I’m more talking about psychologically abandoned. So when that happens and I’m overwhelmed at the same time, well, we’re connected creatures. So our systems move towards each other to process overwhelming feelings.
But if there’s no one there, then I have to process it by myself. But I can’t, because it’s actually too big for one nervous system to handle, Oh-oh. So the reassurance piece is especially important, especially around reassuring, willingness to stay. I’m still with you.
Even if I don’t understand, like, let’s say I’m with a trauma survivor and they’re telling me something and I don’t get it. I could do that reassurance step and say, hun, you know what? I don’t totally understand. And you’re right in that experience verified, and I I’m really here and I’m going to stick it out with you, and I want to understand, try me again.
Rhoda: Yeah. And my word would be maintaining some authenticity, even when it’s about you, your voice was raised and yes, I did raise my voice, that ability to claim it, that creates that space with a little more trust and safety.
Juliane: That’s right. You verify everything you can.
Rhoda: Yeah. I agree.
Juliane: Yeah. And It’s accountability, right. So what is it that builds trust, is accountability and repair. So I’m going to build a bridge of trust, by verifying that their story is a valid one.
Rhoda: Okay. So another client of mine asked, how can they make a distinction between compassion and coddling? And I think what has happened is a lot of trying to do things, the trauma survivor’s way, and then feeling that they’re getting lost in coddling and not sharing how, where that line lies.
Juliane: You know, what thought comes up for me is something you said earlier in this podcast around where it’s quiet resentment. I think that’s actually your internal tell, is are you moving into a space that feels like coddling to you? And I don’t know if it’s cuddling to them or not.
I’m not in their body, but I do know that if you’re entering a space or you’re feeling that quiet resentment about all you’re doing to try to help them feel safe, then it’s time to have a medic conversation about it, a gentle one.
Rhoda: Yeah, that’s good.
Juliane: And rather than, you know, coddling has such a negative connotation. Here’s what it means to me.
Rhoda: Yeah. If you have another word. That’s fine.
Juliane: Yeah. Well, usually with my clients, that’s the word that will come up. I think it might be coddling them.
Rhoda: Because it did come from a client.
Juliane: Yeah, no, it’s a hundred percent accurate and that is the word that’s going to come up for us. And I also want us to U-turn that word for a second, and just notice, if I said, I’m worried, I’m coddling them. Chances are really good that I’m not acting in my own authenticity, that I’m doing more than I think I want to, that I’m doing things that don’t feel good to me.
And then I put it into coddling them, because I often, you know, when we’re facing something hard, we look around for somebody to blame for it, because that’s the way it is, right? So I want to take that word. I want to U-turn it, and just say, Oh, chances are good. You have a boundary here that you’re maybe stepping over a little bit, and let’s be honest about that. And let’s figure out a different way, so that you never have to build up that quiet resentment.
Rhoda: I love that idea of resentment is a tell. That’s great. Yeah. What boundaries need to be improved by a couple where one person struggles with trauma.
Juliane: Oh, all of them. So if somebody is struggling with trauma and I kind of separate out shock trauma versus developmental trauma. So developmental trauma, more emotional, psychological shock has to do with the body. So maybe they have been through… I’ve had people who had a trauma history that had nothing to do with family. They were involved in a fire and a natural disaster…
Rhoda: Oh, sure.
Juliane: Couple of weeks of each other and their whole nervous system got jacked up from it. So that is totally possible. It doesn’t have to be interfamilial though. Unfortunately, it often is. But shock trauma is more like body stuff and developmental trauma is more like psychological stuff.
And for a lot of people, they have both. So if it’s shock trauma, I have to be thoughtful about physical boundary. How close does it feel like it’s okay to be? If I have somebody who has a lot of invasion history, so this is going to be true for anybody who has surgical trauma or really hard dentist stuff, and certainly sexual abuse trauma, or a history with rape.
So anybody who had that sort of situation is going to need a lot of physical safety. So we might want to set up processes, again a Metta conversation, let’s make some agreements about practices that are going to work, like sweetie is totally cool. You tell me to stop touching you anytime you want.
And I will instantly say, wow, how much safety are you going to build in your relationship, if you had that agreement? And how much safety is your partner going to build in trusting their own system that they can protect themselves, you know?
Rhoda: Yeah, that’s great.
Juliane: Because a lot of times we feel like, if we’re trauma survivor and I’ve had a sexual abuse history, it feels like, well, I don’t want my abuse to like, get in the way of their sexual health. So I’ll just let them do this, even though it feels bad. But I want you to have that voice and speak your truth and say that touch doesn’t feel good to me. So having these medic conversations to really go on. So physical boundary is huge, psychological boundary is huge, well, for everybody, but especially on the part of the partner who is not the trauma survivor. So when I say psychological boundary, what I mean is, it’s cool for you to have a different experience than me and I will still be connected to you.
So our psychological boundary knows two things. It knows discernment. What’s true. I let in. What’s about me. I let in. What’s not true, and what’s not about me. I don’t. And I know it’s their process, so it knows discernment and it also knows, Oh, the most benevolent and respectful thing I could ever do is to bear witness to, but not change someone else’s emotional journey. I don’t want to interrupt that.
Rhoda: Yeah.
Juliane: That’s the most important part of their process that they got peace right now, right? I don’t want to interrupt that, but I’m also not going to take it in if it’s not true and it’s not about me, that way, it doesn’t hurt my heart.
And you know, we probably don’t have time in this moment, but there’s so much boundary work, that is, really increases your felt sense of neuroreceptive safety, and neuroreception is just that quick assessment I was talking about, about am I okay? So the nervous system really needs to have a felt sense of safety and boundary work, I think is key for this.
Rhoda: All right. Yeah. I would agree. How can these couples get healthier by using Meta to help them through hard patterns?
Juliane: Oh, I love this, because this like wraps up everything we’ve been talking about. So you guys have been hearing, I’ve been going to Meta again and again. So here’s the thing, is I want conversations where we’re going to be co-creating practices that help both of us feel more authentic and more safe simultaneously.
I want those to happen when my nervous system can do connection and bonding, and I don’t want them to happen in the heat of the moment, because I can’t do connection and bonding. I’m only in self-protection then. So if I’m in this self-protection mode, I’m not going to come up with a good practice, but if we can look at, Oh, this larger pattern, Oh, you know what?
I’ve noticed when I… here’s a common one for people with trauma history, I’ve noticed when I come home from work, we have this tension for like the first half hour, not every day, but a lot. Well, that’s super normal. A lot of people with trauma histories re-engagement and connection is really triggering. It’s really hard, since their system sense a potential danger.
Okay. So we noticed that. Okay, well, what feels hard for me about when you come home, what feels hard for you about when you come home? Could we create some practices that are really going to honor and create more safety, but not discount our own authenticity and needs, and we can get creative with them.
Rhoda: Wow. That’s great. It really is, and my very last question, can you share about embracing what you call mini grief?
Juliane: Oh, yes. This is so important. I have really terrible news. In any long-term relationship, you are not going to get a lot of what you want. I’m so sorry. Okay. I have a mentor Terry Reel, who says this thing. He says, if you want what you want, when you want it, live alone.
So here’s what he means is that actually, there are going to be lots of moments where I’m going to feel disappointment and I’m going to hope that something goes away and then it won’t. And disappointment is my feeling sense of processing the letting go, the mini grief is about letting go of that one hope in that moment.
And if you have a ton of mini grief every single day, then, let’s really do some deep dives and think about, are enough of my big needs getting met in this relationship, that is okay for me, that these needs aren’t or that these wants aren’t?
And you’re going to… in order to have a relationship with somebody who’s a trauma survivor, there are going to be, and by the way, both [unintelligible 36:59], right? So if I’m a trauma survivor and I have moments with my partner and he’s not a trauma survivor, right. Let’s just imagine that space.
So there are so many people with trauma histories, it makes a lot of sense if we find each other. There are going to be lots of moments where we miss each other, where they’re misattunements and I’m going to feel the disappointment. And I think embracing that, and then speaking up for that so we can make the patterns better is a way better way than trying to control the other person to get them not to have it.
Rhoda: Yeah, that’s right.
Juliane: So I’m all about embracing mini grief, even though it’s kind of hard news.
Rhoda: So I want to share with you, I’m writing a kids book for my two grandsons and it’s called; everybody has a lizard brain.
Juliane: Oh, I love it.
Rhoda: I thought you might appreciate it. that’s why I mentioned it. I’m so glad you came on my podcast today. And the name of your podcast is; why does my partner dot-dot question mark, tell us a little about that?
Juliane: So I have two dear friends who are also married to a family therapists and trauma recovery specialists. And we kind of do similar work and they approached me and said, Hey, what happens if we make a podcast? And we started talking about like, what would we want to do?
Because podcasts, you know, this, you know, this better than most, podcasts are such a labor of love. It’s a lot of work and it’s really like a gift out into the world. So what will we want to do, and we came up… how it came, was we said, well, we really want to help answer the questions we actually get asked in our office. And we said, well, we’d start spit balling it around.
Hey, what questions do we get asked? And they all start the same way. Why does my partner or why doesn’t my partner? And so we tackle a question every single week. And so we’ve done, why does my partner load the dishwasher wrong?
We’ve done. Why doesn’t my partner read my mind? We’ve done. Why does my partner keep forgetting my love language? So check us out. And it’s whydoesmypartnerorwhydoesn’tmypartner.com. And you can find this on Apple and Stitcher. And I don’t know, all the podcasts D spaces.
Rhoda: That’s great. Thank you so much for coming today.
Juliane: Oh, thank you for having me. It has been such a delight.
